Panic Blog

If apps are showing up as Installed (I have Transmit 4 and Coda), does that mean the Mac App Store will handle updates, or will they only be handled through the in-app updates as it works now?

For example: Does this mean I will get Coda 2.0 (if its coming) for free as an update after buying Coda 1 in the Mac App Store. Or will you chance the whole Version-system in any way?

krazy day indeed. good luck! (Coda does show as installed for me and I bought it eons ago.)

And of course I screwed up and “bought” Coda thru the App Store so it sucks right now since I got it before…

The Icon Factory kinda resolved this by.. adding a new app and discontinuing their old versions. They’ve had multiple versions of their Twitterific app for iOS over the past few years, at one point they had a separate free version and a paid-for “premium” edition, but they’ve changed to just having one version that has an in-app purchase.

@Cabel: think about it, if you buy iWorks Pages 09 now through the App Store, will you have to pay again for iWorks Pages 11? I don’t think so. Will there be a feature split then between e.g. regular Coda and the version in the App Store?

Man, that’s just crazy. I like the idea of App Store and all but why should I pay again for an app I already have? This one I don’t really like.

Hmmmm… and what happens to one license, two computers (eg home and work or desktop and laptop) as long as there’s just one user?

This is definitely interesting to watch. I think the update pricing issue will definitely be a issue.

I have to disagree with the earlier commenter that once a user buys an application, they should get updates free for life. I don’t think this is right for iOS or Desktop apps. While bugfixes and small updates should definitely remain free; significant updates which require significant investment by a business should be charged. The reason this commonly isn’t a huge iOS issue in my opinion is that the apps are often simple in nature and updates for the majority aren’t truly significant in scale.

Its economic driven. If all updates are always free.. then each business will only get one sale from a customer forever. So in order to still financially make this work they will have to have a much higher initial purchase price. But by charging for significant upgrades, this can allow for more reasonable initial pricing. It’s not about greed, companies that are greedy always suffer in the face of competition. But Panic makes super great software… and well.. each of their team needs to eat and earn a living.

This is going to be interesting to watch. Good luck Panic.

@Cabel: I would like to ask if CandyBar is coming to the Mac App Store in the near future?

A serial number promo code exchange would be the way to go.

I think I will continue buying directly from you guys. I would rather you get the whole amount than 70% of it.

The point is, we don’t know how anyone is going to handle updates, so it is not transparent to the customer. They split iWorks in Pages, Numbers, Keynote etc., question would be if you then will be able to buy the old version too? Lots of Apps reached major versions higher than 1 in the iOS App Store. But maybe you can find out more info as you guys are able to read the terms and conditions from the programmers side?

I love my Panic apps but re-purchasing every one of them is not going to happen. Loads of shame on Apple for being pig-headed, and (a little) shame on you guys (== all devs, not just Panic) for not putting more pressure on Apple.

Ah, that’s too bad the upgrade isn’t available. I guess I’ll have to wait for transmit 5/coda 2 to get them from the app store.

Thanks for keeping everyone in the loop!

-Mike

I see only one downside: You don’t get these beautiful Order Receipts anymore when you buy Panic stuff.

The App Store seems great for individual purchases, but lousy for corporate accounts. We buy Transmit for all our developers, but (unless I’m missing something) there’s no way to transition licenses from an account of a developer who left to a new incoming developer under the App Store. Correct?

Which means I hope you guys never stop selling direct :-)

Do I think it will be anything like an app store that sells titles for 99 cents? Nah. You just dont do many impulse buys at 15.00.

I think the answer of payment for new major versions of software is that there shouldn’t be new major versions. Updating easily and in one place means that we’re a bit closer to being able to treat real software as web apps and how they push out updates as individual fixes and individually added features, without version numbers involved (think 37signals). Of course no single solution to this issue will cover every developer’s needs, but I suppose I’ll just have to wait and see what happens like everyone else.

pity there’s no way to transfer licenses to the app store, kinda defeats the point

I think you are definitely doing the right call here. I for one will be really reluctant to buy anything outside the App Store (or Steam for games) in the future. It’s not that I find it hard to install and maintain apps, it’s just that I prefer it neat and simple, and oh, the endless serial keys are killing me (yay for 1Password for saving me there).
But yes, they need to figure out some sort of upgrade policy system or it’ll run into problems in time, when it gets time to release newer versions of apps.

In the short term, do you guys plan on phasing out the option of buying directly from Panic for apps that are available in the app store?

I work for a small company that uses your products, and typically we buy copies with the company credit card and then send the licenses to the person who’s using it. Trying to maintain that kind of setup with separate Apple IDs for each person could get yucky.

I can totally sympathize with the overhead that would be required to manage two distribution channels, I just wanted to let you know about our use case for doing it the “old” way.

SIDELOAD 4 LIFE!!!

Another thought, they probably should move the iDevice AppStore from iTunes to the new AppStore btw. Always felt a bit odd to me with it being part of a music and movie software and they are separated on the actual devices.

For me the Mac App Store seems like a breath of fresh air, but with a huge “but” as well.

Mac apps are, in general, quite a bit bigger than iPad/iPhone apps. Buying a handfull of apps for your job (like Coda, iWork… apps like that) can easily make it a huge pain in the backside if you ever have to migrate to a new computer or simply have/want to reinstall your system. If you have to re-download 3-4GB worth of apps, it takes more time compared to simply having an offline backup of your programs.

Does anyone know if you can make a local backup of your apps as with the iOS App Store? But in this case not Apple-controlled, but let’s say on an external HD? My internet connection is quite fast, but my patience is very low if I can’t control my own personal backups when it comes to software… and I can imagine IT-people feeling the same way in the long run. ;)

i think apple is being short sighted by not allowing in both the mac and the iphone app stores – 1. demo versions (time limited or with grayed out features) and 2. paid updates (not full re-buys to next versions). in typical apple fashion, they are forcing the public to “upgrade” their way of thinking. not wholly sure if it will fly, or if even it is better than the “old” way. in the end, i think developers will take the flack for it as well (either via user outrage, or just not making enough money anymore (lower price expectations, no paid upgrades) and shutting down). guess we will find out!

It seems it’s not sufficient to merely drag the Transmit app to the trash, as the App Store still sees it even there! You have to empty the trash, too. I also had to delete another copy from a Sparkle update folder in ~/Library. Seems the App Store is a bit thick.

@Cameron Malek: but that would mean that the developer does the same *overall* amount of work as they would put into a major version (in fact more, given the time involved in preparing each update for release) but gets no revenue from that work, because each individual update was too small to have a perceived value. There’s no incentive for a developer to move to that model.

This is pretty big garbage. If Apple wants customers to embrace the new App Store with Lion 100%, they really need to solve the automatic updates issue. I’ve got a dozen apps that I’m sure will begin appearing in the App Store soon, and although it seems lazy of me to demand a functionality that I’ve getting along without, it *is* going to get tiresome trying to recall which apps I bought where and who I need to go to for updates.

As hwit already pointed out. Isn’t there a way to provide free App Store codes (something like iTS gifts) to existing customers that can provide a valid serial number?!

Repost of JamesBissets original question as it has not been answered and I also have the same concern. In my case it is a macbookAir laptop and a MacMini. Two machines, one user.

“Hmmmm… and what happens to one license, two computers (eg home and work or desktop and laptop) as long as there’s just one user?”

To Evan
Automatic updates, MacUpdate.com has that down packed. And updates are free.

I haven’t seen any promo codes for MAS apps show up yet, but if they do exist, is there any chance you guys could set up a system where a user could submit their existing transmit license key and apple ID, and get a MAS Transmit promo code back? Only downside I see with that is I could give the promo code to someone else and we’d both have a copy for the price of one. Maybe just use the honor system in that case, or is there anyway to gift a specific app to a specific person like you can gift a song in the iTS?

The problem you guys are facing in regards to international customers is that you now are subjecting us all to apples exchange rate ripoffs. I am living in Australia and i have to pay AUD$37 for your USD$30 app. this includes a 10% sales tax but this does not explain the extra $4 apple is charging us. These days USD$1=AUD$1

Great thing you put all your apps into the store. Did you get a option to style your “app sites”, like (poor) e.g Pixelmator?

@FelixP: Now it’s getting tricky. ;-) What if they would allow all MAS customers a free upgrade to the next major release which will be paid for non-MAS customers. And then go for a new major release asap.

Yes, in theory Panic could provide promo codes. I am not familiar with the Mac app store specifically, but I know that on the iPhone app store, developers only get 50 promo codes per version. Which wouldn’t cover anywhere near the number of Panic customers.

It’s an interesting discussion going on here in regards to existing users crossgrading to the Mac AppStore version of Panic’s apps. A little British software company, RealMac Software, have a similar problem. They’ve setup a special email address where existing customers send a copy of their existing receipt and their AppStore receipt for one of RealMac’s app and they’ll receive a refund of the RealMac store purchase. I’m not sure if the refund is through paypal or your original payment method, or in the form of an AppStore voucher /iTunes account. But it’s definitely an interesting option thato others have taken.

More info here: http://realmacsoftware.com/blog/mac-app-store-pricing

P.S. I’m not liked to RealMac at all, just s happy customer.

Wel: the Pixelmator app is on sale with a promise the update to version 2 is free for everyone who purchase the AppStore version. This makes sense if you will sell this only in the AppStore I think.

You guys GET IT. The Mac App Store is actually a great thing for users, and I know that because I work in an Apple Store. I deal with all sorts of customers (from the most beginner person to the most advances Final Cut fan who knows Apple stuff 100x better than me) and it’s not true that everyone finds it super easy to download and update apps. The whole dmg/disk image/drag to applications process is a confusing one for a lot of people and the App Store really is a great thing. Thanks, Panic. Long live this company.

If you want to leave Apple feedback about how disappointed you are with the MacApp Store, go here – http://www.apple.com/feedback/
I left feed back for the computer I have, an iMac. I think if you are pissed off that devs can NOT add current customers to the MacApp store, please give them some feedback, maybe they will change! It would be EASY to add current customers if a DEV could send out a code to a current owner of their app that they could input.

Zeebe, I totally agree. Will leave feedback at Apple. Thanks!

If I may ask a question: Selling Coda through your own site will give you 100% of the price, but Apple takes a cut when it’s sold through the app store, right? What is your view on this?

I ask because I think a lot of small software companies will suffer from this.

@kimblim – not true. Card processing fees, web hosting/bandwidth, SSL certificates, etc. add up, Apple’s “cut” is really just for maintenance that individual developers now don’t have to worry about (if they go Mac App Store exclusive).

Is there an equivalent to iTunes vouchers for the Mac App Store? There should be – then Panic could send registered users a voucher for a free side-grade to the Mac App store version if they want to.

Small developers won’t suffer if the MAS exposure generates 2X or greater sales without increasing support costs too much.

@ian, there isn’t at this time, I agree, this would be THE BEST way for Apple to integrate people into the MacApp Store in fact, if Apple doesn’t want this, which looks like they don’t, they should integrate it right now, tell devs to get their users in the App Store by the end of the month, and then take that option out. At least GET the USER BASE into the store, IMHO. If you agree, go to this website and leave feedback for Apple:
http://www.apple.com/feedback/

@ian
Yes there is an equivalent but their number are limited. (I believe it’s 100 per version which is far from enough to do such a thing)

@Cabel: Thanx – I agree that the volume of sales should increase, but it will be interesting to follow (as in: please do a blog post on this in the future, pretty please)

Hey Panic,

will you provide, after the next major release of any app, to purchase still from you and through the MAS? Or will you bring your apps straight to the MAS only?

Cheers

Thank you. I’m also quite curious about, how everything is going with Apple’s new child.

Since Apple has the purchase history for every app to be sold they could create App Store logic showing an “upgrade” link (with different pricing than standard) if purchase history for that AppleID indicates a previous version was purchased. I don’t know whether this would be transactionally expensive (database lookup), but it’s conceptually simple.

One thing I *do* know is that if I ask the Mac App Store to check for updates and there are some, if it asks me whether I actually want to see them I’ll go mental. #iOSAppStoreFail

Are you guys going to put your apps on the Bodega App store as well?

This transition is gonna be rough, but I hope quite short. I will transition my Panic apps when new versions come out, I don’t like to pay in advance for software (even if it’s awesome software).

I really hope you’ll keep the regular order channels open. I fear the slippery slope, some future where all transactions HAVE to run through Apple. I can name a lot of apps that have no chance to get included in a Mac App Store: (torrentclients, stuff that conflicts with Apple interests now or down the line, controversial programs that have to do with WikiLeaks or programs that let you access adult themed material. Who knows.

The whole idea is a step back from free computing, in my opinion. With Sparkle (or similar techniques) there already is a completely satisfactory system for updating apps *as you run them*. I’d rather buy directly from developers than in the guilded cage by Apple – however much sugarcoated for convenience.

tl;dr Keep your regular channels open, please! ;)

Why do Australians have to pay $20 more for Coda? It’s AU$119.99 on the Mac App Store, or US$99 direct from Panic (and the exchange rate is around 1:1 at the moment)

Do you guys know if there’s anything you can do about that? Probably not. I think I’ll be avoiding the Mac App Store as much as possible, especially for more expensive professional apps.

Ok here’s the scenario I aim to avoid. I love your software, and I want to support you. So I think I’ll re-purchase from the app store this once and chalk it up to maintaining greatness. Then in 6 months Apple is going to say that they love their customers, and they listen so they’re introducing a magical breakthrough in application deployment technology… The upgrade, and the upgrade price! And I think they’re going to nail it! They’re going to rally get it right and I congratulate them in advance for their major awesomeness and now that I’ve paid for the same app twice, I’ll now have the ability to buy an upgrade too! So for now, I buy nothing from the app store if I have it. I’m not going to fall into Apple’s trap.

@Douglas Nup. All pricing is handled by pricing tiers that set the price globally. I don’t believe it’s possible to have different pricing for different countries. And the tiers are all constant, no matter what the current exchange rate is.

@Douglas – It’s an absolute gouge and it really should be unacceptable – unfortunately the typically commercial pressure that can be bought on a company is unlikely to succeed with apple as most users wont even know.

Whilst I appreciate that the exchange rate isn’t always as transparent as what you’ll get at the counter, $20 will see additional margin in this instance

I love your applications Panic – thanks for all the Transmit & Coda goodness; if Amazon were to launch an OS X ‘store’ would you look to them as well as Apple for distribution?

I kind of don’t see what the problem is.

The App Store is only a day old so not everyone is going to repurchase the software they have but use it to get software they don’t currently have. Then when new versions come out they will buy using the App Store.

Ultimately everything will work itself out as these sorts of things inevitably do.

I guess we should ultimately complain to Panic for not having Coda 2 ready for App Store. ;-)

Shouldn’t Mac developers be selling the apps in the App Store at a discount since the user will be paying full price for every major new release?

That leaves the customer with the choice of buying directly through the developer for full price knowing they will get future discounted updates versus the convenience of buying through the app store along with a lower upfront price but having to pay full price again for the next major release.

It seems like that is best middle ground for developers right now unless and until Apple changes their stance on upgrades.

Hi!

Congrats on making it for the opening for the App Revolution in Distribution! Thrilled to see all of your apps there, but I am disappointed that we will not be enjoying the seamless updates provided by the MacAppStore…

Is there no way to provide your previous users a redeemable code for the store, and to deactivate our previous licenses? I would surely trade my license for a redeemable code.

Please think about it because its kind of unfair for your original users.

I’m considering buying Coda, but undecided whether to buy direct or via MAS (Mac App Store).

What’s the current situation with buying direct. Would I be able to install on more than one Mac without any license conflicts? If not then that would be one benefit buying from MAS.

One benefit buying direct is the option of Paypal. And knowing much more than 70% goes to supporting the developers. And also peace of mind that discount upgrade pricing would be available.

Thanks.

I don’t know if this helps. I have iLife ’09 installed and I am being offered an updated to iPhoto ’11 for £8.99. The iLife ’09 was not an App Store purchase. Maybe Apple should explain how they can selectively offer to update their apps that were not purchased through the App Store and why you can’t – especially if this is doing your brand harm through no fault of your own.

Cabel, the way you’ve chosen to handle this situation is impressive, to say the least. You’ve made tough decisions yet left Panic nimble and able to transition around Apple’s future enhancements to the App Store.

My two cents: Continue to support as many customers as humanly possible. Both through the app store, and outside of the app store. Apple wants to get this right. By not rejecting them and making the decision to ride along on this crazy journey, while at the same time being devoted to your customers, you are showing why Panic is Panic.

Keep it up. I’m absolutely confident this will work out in your favor.

I feel mixed about one of my favorite Apple software makers (Panic!) jumping on the App Store.

What if you want to introduce a feature (or a fix for a bug) that violates Apple’s terms for the App store?

What about actually knowing who your clients are (name, email, etc)? How will we get support if you’re not even sure who we are?

What if you need to release a patch TODAY, but the patch doesn’t get approved by Apple for days?

Does this mean you will focus less on programs (like CandyBar) that require root access to do what they need to do? I still want interesting, innovative apps like that- even if Apple doesn’t approve of them in the App Store.

Anyway- love Panic. Love Apple. The App Store feels like it hurts the independent software industry though. Am I just fearing change here?

Also, in regards to the 30% cut that Apple takes, don’t forget that there’a very good chance that there will be less illegal copies of a developers product… meaning that if (for example) every 1 out of 5 potential customers simply download your software via the not-so-legal way, there’s actually a good chance that a part of those same people will buy the same product via the App Store.

Even if only 20-30% of those downloaders would buy the software via App Store (because it’s easier or cheaper perhaps) it would generate more profit and nullify the 30% cut that Apple takes. I think in average the 30% cut is pretty much what most developers lose on traffic/hosting and such, but ffor those who have an established company like Panic and Realmac, it depends on wether or not the extra exposure/customers will nullify the 30% cut :)

Interesting that on the Australian Itunes (Mac App) Store, Transmit is AU$42, but if I buy direct from the Panic Store, it is US$34 (=AU$34). What to do, what to do..

According to the help for the Mac App Store: .. “After you purchase an application, you can install it free of charge on every Mac you use.”

Is this true of all apps, including Coda?

The big problem I have with the MAS is the unknown… Right now, I have most of the apps I will ever need, including Transmit, Coda, and Candybar. Sure, I will purchase more in the future, but still 90% + will have been purchased from the developer or via package deals. As I understand it, none of these can be incorporated into the MAS. I have seen several developers going MAS exclusively, such as Pixelmator. I do not see the benefit of MAS in my case as I will always have to upgrade 90% outside of MAS. I know over time the percentage will shrink as paid upgrades occur, but that will be a long time coming.

I like it and hope could use in my MacBook Pro

“we know that installing and updating apps is a massive point of confusion for a surprising amount of users” –seriously?

…yes, seriously. You must not have a mother with a mac. :-) I’ve seen very computer literate people get confused by OSX software installation.

“So, you download a disk image, which is a file that mounts a virtual volume to the OS, once inside that volume, you will see the application. But don’t run it from there! You need to copy that app into your Applications folder instead. Then you can safely eject the virtual disk and move the disk image to the trash.”

On Windows you download a file, which launches a setup wizard. Next, next, I agree, next, finish. As Jobs would say “Boom. Installed.”

The fact that many people have a problem with the OS X installation process is a sad reflection on society – that so many people are not prepared to learn how to use the tools they have. Computers got too powerful too quickly and now many people expect them to ‘just work’. My own wife still refuses to learn how Finder works and therefore regularly has issues finding files to open – even understanding that they are just files.

I will continue to buy applications directly from you as long as you continue to offer the option. I’m already paying enough of a premium on my computer; I don’t want $30 of my Coda purchase to go to Apple too. Please don’t force me to use the app store.

Joram, you have fallen for the common fallacy that all pirated copies are lost sales and no pirated copies result in new customers. Neither are true. I actually know a few people who have pirated Panic products and gone on to be enthusiastic customers and evangelizers.

Allister, you might find this article to be of interest:

http://www.potionfactory.com/node/251

Just because you and I know how to deal with DMG files doesn’t mean it’s an intuitive process that can’t be improved.

Please continue to distribute your software outside of the AppStore. Lots of people (including me) don’t want to use it. I can’t speak for the others, but I won’t buy from the AppStore!

@Mark

I also agree with your idea! Panic, please, do not punish your users only using the MAS as it did Pixelmator.
I do not buy more Pixelmator and license (version 1.6.2) that I purchased will be trashed!

Many people continue to buy your software much more willingly, especially if you can call and every Mayor Release can avoid buying the software from scratch. :-)

PS: sorry for the English.

Without reading your blog first, I want ahead and bought Transmit 4. You guys make great software and I want to continue supporting you. However, the disconnect between the app store and just buying directly, in terms of license transferrals and what not, is just ridiculous. Apart from that, there’s the fact that Apple charges quite a bit which is coming out of your margins and seeing as your ordering procedure was pretty awesome as it were, I feel kind of bad about that. Any way, I expect to continue being a happy Panic customer, but in the future I’d rather pay you guys directly.

I have been investigating FTP apps recently, and came across this. I am happy that you still offer non-MAS purchases! I know I will certainly NOT buy from the MAS if there is another option available. Please continue to provide updates, downloads and of course upgrade pricing!

Will leave feedback at Apple. Thanks.

I don’t believe it’s possible to have different pricing for different countries

30% apple share is really unfair (It’s ok with app store(iOS) but ..?). I love panic products & you guys should get the value i want to give. I will continue to buy coda from this site(directly from you guys) .

Strange,
in Germany it´s more expensive to buy your Software in the MAS than directly from you. Transmit costs in the MAS 3€ more than from your Website. And if I buy from you, i can be sure to get the cheaper updates and the developers get more money.
Therefore I won´t buy your Software in the MAS!

May have missed this, but an option to give Apple their “cut” and transfer reg. would be acceptable (to me at least).

Hello.

I am going to buy Coda, but in the Mac App Store it is £69.99, and on the website it is $99 (which works out at about £60).

Why is it more expensive in the App Store? Is there any disadvantage (now, or in the future) if I buy direct from you?

I wish I would have done more research before buying both Coda and Transmit from the App store. Now I’m 1 version behind on both. Is there any way to convert from an app store version to the panic version?

Any news on the MAS paid upgrades thingie? I’d really like to pay for new, major functionality – but not be treated as a new customer every time when I’ve been supporting the company for half a decade now :-/

previously I had a downloaded growl version installed and a downloaded coda version, and it worked well, i updated to lion and growl installed through the app store and i still have my downloaded version of coda, now growl does not see anything from Coda, i imagine this might be due to some app store hijinks? stumbled upon this trying to see if i could xfer license to coda app store to see if that would resolve the problem…

Hi, any news on this? Do you know how will you manage the update process to Coda V2.0 for Mac App Store users and for “direct” users (who buy directly from your site)?. Im about to buy Coda but I don´t really know where to buy. I like the easy Mac App Store approach, but it’s not funny at all to pay again the full price for the 2.0 update knowing that it will cost less if I buy it directly from your site. Do you know how will you handle this? thanks

I will happy if my Standalone installation able to move to AppStore without RE PURCHASE it… please….

Isn’t/won’t there be any way to link my previously bought (Transmit 4 & Coda 2) licenses into my AppStore account? I would love to download updates for ALL my software from the very same place, rather than update every software every time I open them.

Please update Transmit to use Growl 1.3 from 1.2. I bought the latest Growl via the App Store and Transmit no longer works with it.

How do you get your serial number if you have purchased through the Apple Store? I am unable to retrieve and when I request via the panic.com web-site, I am being emailed my Coda 1 serial from 2009.

Please provide me a serial for my purchase of Coda 2!

I didn’t get a serial number when I purchased through Apple. Help???